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Description

Hi

As I understand it Off-weapon ed does work with
Smite
(despite not being shown on the LCS).
On that note I was curious why all
Smite
-builds for shield recommend HoZ instead of Phoenix (with it's 350-400% ed).

Is it only for all the other nice things HoZ offers, apart from just damage, or are the +skills on HoZ actually worth more damage than you get from the ed on Phoenix ?
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Hi

As I understand it Off-weapon ed does work with
Smite
(despite not being shown on the LCS).
On that note I was curious why all
Smite
-builds for shield recommend HoZ instead of Phoenix (with it's 350-400% ed).

Is it only for all the other nice things HoZ offers, apart from just damage, or are the +skills on HoZ actually worth more damage than you get from the ed on Phoenix ?
7
User avatar

Schnorki 3496Moderator

PC
Fact:
Most build guides are pretty bad. Imo that most certainly includes any guide that suggests HoZ on a smiter for any reason other than "you just can't afford anything better yet".

If you're going for max dmg, Phoenix generally beats HoZ by a clear margin (typically around 10-15%, give or take). Plus it actually adds more elemental survivability at the same time (thanks to the max res), among other things, all while costing you quite little in return.

If you're going for survivability and/or convenience, Exile blows everything else out of the water by an even clearer margin. All while actually giving you about the same, if not higher, dmg as/than HoZ, thanks to allowing you to swap dracs for
Steelrend
or the like.

Everything HoZ offers that is somewhat relevant to a smiter is either beat by the other options or extremely easy to get/
Cap
out on anyways. It is and remains a great shield for a number of pally builds. But proper smiters...just no.

Exception:
If you actually want to deal with the hassle, you could keep an HoZ in your cube to pre-buff
Holy Shield
with and then switch back to a real smiter shield. But honestly...f that.

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7
by smiter do you mean 1 point in
Smite
and clearing mobs with
Zeal
?

also flat damage on the weapon does count for
Smite
so Grief adds 340-400 .....
7
I did a single offline test on a pure smiter-build. The result shows under the same set-up, the
Herald Of Zakarum
is beating Phoenix shield on
Smite
damage.
The set-up is as follows:

1. The character is a level 99 paladin. He only equips Enigma with a 20/20
Annihilus
and a 20/20 torch in the inventory, which gives strength boost from 25 to 139 (Enigma is 74, other 2 is 40).
2. The character has all base strength, dexterity, vitality, and energy, which are 25, 20, 25 and 15. With the set-up, they are 139, 60, 65 and 55.
3. The character has skill
Smite
,
Holy Shield
and
Fanaticism
at LVL 20 max, with the set-up, they are LVL 30 with
Herald Of Zakarum
and LVL 26 with Phoenix.
4. Due to
Herald Of Zakarum
is a
Gilded Shield
, I chose a
Gilded Shield
base for the Phoenix shield as well to make base
Smite
damage the same.

The test results are:

1. No Fana, no
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 129-180,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 141-198.
2. With Fana, no
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 224-313,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 243-341.
2. With
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 639-708,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 829-907.
3. With Fana and
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 1118-1240,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 1425-1559.

Note:
The
Herald Of Zakarum
and the Phoenix shield are both with the perfect status.
7
User avatar

Schnorki 3496Moderator

PC
Flyhorse wrote: 4 months ago
I did a single offline test on a pure smiter-build. The result shows under the same set-up, the
Herald Of Zakarum
is beating Phoenix shield on
Smite
damage.
The set-up is as follows:

1. The character is a level 99 paladin. He only equips Enigma with a 20/20
Annihilus
and a 20/20 torch in the inventory, which gives strength boost from 25 to 139 (Enigma is 74, other 2 is 40).
2. The character has all base strength, dexterity, vitality, and energy, which are 25, 20, 25 and 15. With the set-up, they are 139, 60, 65 and 55.
3. The character has skill
Smite
,
Holy Shield
and
Fanaticism
at LVL 20 max, with the set-up, they are LVL 30 with
Herald Of Zakarum
and LVL 26 with Phoenix.
4. Due to
Herald Of Zakarum
is a
Gilded Shield
, I chose a
Gilded Shield
base for the Phoenix shield as well to make base
Smite
damage the same.

The test results are:

1. No Fana, no
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 129-180,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 141-198.
2. With Fana, no
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 224-313,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 243-341.
2. With
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 639-708,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 829-907.
3. With Fana and
Holy Shield
cast: Phoenix
Smite
damage is 1118-1240,
Herald Of Zakarum
simte damage is 1425-1559.

Note:
The
Herald Of Zakarum
and the Phoenix shield are both with the perfect status.
First off, it is a bit of a weird approach to compare smiter gear performance on the premise that for the most part, you're not using any gear.

Second, I'm assuming your "test results" are the numbers your character screen showed to you, seeing how hitting stuff won't show you exact numbers in d2? I'm afraid that means your test results are sadly invalid as the character screen is quite bugged in general and specifically also with regards to calculating the effect of off-weapon ED on
Smite
. The numbers you see there are not your actual damage numbers.

If you use the same gear and maxroll it out (which is often also not 100% accurate but far closer than the LCS in this case), Phoenix (6132 dps) already beats HoZ (5122 dps) by a mile. And that's in probably the most "HoZ-friendly" comparison possible (well, almost...fort over Enigma would favor it more but that's about it). Once you upgrade the shields from Gilded to the elite
Zakarum Shield
(which you obviously should for any smiter, regardless of your exact shield choice, and add in things like Grief and more skill points from other gear, you dramatically increase the 'base'
Smite
damage pre-ED. And the higher that goes, the lower the relative impact of the extra skill points on HoZ. At the same time, the relative impact of Phoenix ED does also drop if you opt for say ED jewels but that drop is nowhere near as much as the relative drop on HoZ skills (unless you switch Enigma for fort, that's a rather solid drop bringing the DPS gain with Phoenix down to the 10-15% range mentioned earlier).

___
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While we are at it, something I never questioned and just assumed I needed was faster hit recovery on my dedicated uber smiter - 48 break point I think is what I aimed for. I just saw a video of a record clear and that guy had none...

Do uber smiters need FHR?

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User avatar

Schnorki 3496Moderator

PC
azeroti wrote: 4 months ago
While we are at it, something I never questioned and just assumed I needed was faster hit recovery on my dedicated uber smiter - 48 break point I think is what I aimed for. I just saw a video of a record clear and that guy had none...

Do uber smiters need FHR?
Hit recovery is only a thing if you actually get hit AND you get hit hard enough (8.33% of your life I believe it was but don't quote me on that one - been too long ^^).

As a geared smiter, you're looking at max speed max block. You're also typically looking at a rather hefty life pool. And if that wasn't enough, you can also very easily be looking at 40k+ defense. And of course max res, often times past the normal 75%
Cap
. And likely some DR on top of that, just for good measure.
As a result, actually getting hit is rather rare. Getting hit hard enough when you do get hit is equally quite rare. And the combination of both is obviously even more rare. You hence typically don't need to worry much about FHR on a geared smiter.

The main reason you'd still want some FHR on a smiter is really just to stop being delayed while you run places. Plus at least the early breakpoints (say..48) tend to be fairly easy to get just on the side. For "record clears" though, delays while running tend to not be a concern as they generally pre-mapped perfect map seeds and then
Teleport
where they need to be with basically 0 steps ever taken.

___
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7
Schnorki wrote: 4 months ago
Fact:
Most build guides are pretty bad. Imo that most certainly includes any guide that suggests HoZ on a smiter for any reason other than "you just can't afford anything better yet".

If you're going for max dmg, Phoenix generally beats HoZ by a clear margin (typically around 10-15%, give or take). Plus it actually adds more elemental survivability at the same time (thanks to the max res), among other things, all while costing you quite little in return.

If you're going for survivability and/or convenience, Exile blows everything else out of the water by an even clearer margin. All while actually giving you about the same, if not higher, dmg as/than HoZ, thanks to allowing you to swap dracs for
Steelrend
or the like.

Everything HoZ offers that is somewhat relevant to a smiter is either beat by the other options or extremely easy to get/
Cap
out on anyways. It is and remains a great shield for a number of pally builds. But proper smiters...just no.

Exception:
If you actually want to deal with the hassle, you could keep an HoZ in your cube to pre-buff
Holy Shield
with and then switch back to a real smiter shield. But honestly...f that.
I think the screw up with Phoenix' Fireblast NHD keeps it from appearing on the Top of the Lists (even though it's now fixed)

For the Exile though i have to strongly disagree

With Forti and HS you'll sit somewhere between 25k - 35k def without
Defiance
, wich is more than enough. I wouldn't say that
Defiance
is useless but it's far from being a game changer.

And then: even with a 65% ED automod Exile + perfect Steel rends you'll only beat the upped herald by 1k dps. it can just tie the Herald's damage

...and that's only because of the strength you need for Steel rend. With +45AR Base you'll never pass that upped Herald

So after everything is said and done you'll pay half a fortune for a good base + runes that results in a runeword wich has lower damage and lower res.

Smiter with upped Herald: Damage per Second: 40,830

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#1

Smiter with Exile (65% ED): Damage per Second: 40,816

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#2

Smiter with Exile (45AllRes): Damage per Second: 39,341

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#3


Edit:

just noted, the HS Lvl Transfers between Sets, the Exiles are even worse Damage wise

This is my Zealer. There aren't many like him and this one is mine.
My Zealer is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I must master my life.
Without me, my Zealer is useless. Without my Zealer, i am useless.
7
User avatar

Schnorki 3496Moderator

PC
Flippy wrote: 4 months ago
[..]
I think the screw up with Phoenix' Fireblast NHD keeps it from appearing on the Top of the Lists (even though it's now fixed)

For the Exile though i have to strongly disagree

With Forti and HS you'll sit somewhere between 25k - 35k def without
Defiance
, wich is more than enough. I wouldn't say that
Defiance
is useless but it's far from being a game changer.

And then: even with a 65% ED automod Exile + perfect Steel rends you'll only beat the upped herald by 1k dps. it can just tie the Herald's damage

...and that's only because of the strength you need for Steel rend. With +45AR Base you'll never pass that upped Herald

So after everything is said and done you'll pay half a fortune for a good base + runes that results in a runeword wich has lower damage and lower res.

Smiter with upped Herald: Damage per Second: 40,830

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#1

Smiter with Exile (65% ED): Damage per Second: 40,816

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#2

Smiter with Exile (45AllRes): Damage per Second: 39,341

https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/ak3300x2#3


Edit:

just noted, the HS Lvl Transfers between Sets, the Exiles are even worse Damage wise
30%+ more def (40-50% with other base choices) still makes a rather noticeable difference (as does the 200%+ for your merc). As do the higher max resistances. Be that as it may though, neither of those is the real reason for Exile. Even put together, they're not the main reason for it. The LT proc is. For that, the difference between 5% from dracs and 15% from Exile is more than just noticeable (again for both, you and your merc). The only thing you actually give up on that front is a relatively small amount of base life (due to the higher str invest from dracs to SR, if you so choose) which is more than just made up for in the defensive gains. Or, if you just don't want to accept that, you could leave out the SR and actively go "full defense mode", giving you more life on top of the other factors though at that point you are indeed then actively sacrificing damage (needlessly imo).

As for your damage comparison, first off, I strongly disagree with the entire premise. If you want to compare the actual general performance of one item vs. another, you have to look at each one in the context of a properly and fully geared build (so with stat points distributed correctly, with charms, without
Shako
on a smiter, ...). At any point below the top-end, you can realistically always come up with some random gear and stat combination that will make any one thing look better than any one other thing and vice versa. Ultimately, it doesn't actually tell you anything.
(Exception: If you're specifically trying to choose between A and B for your current gear and build then sure, it makes sense, but that's it - not to draw any general conclusions)

That having been said, even in your linked builds here, the non-dmg (i.e. 45 res) Exile still beats HoZ in real damage. You're merely making the mistake of ignoring the higher CB (thanks to not needing drac's) and looking at raw dps on some theoretical dummy, rather than hits-to-kill/time-to-kill on something you'd actually
Smite
.
After you fix your HS buff level, your HoZ hits for 10980.5 avg while your Exile sits at 10585. On paper, that's <4% less damage so already insignificant. In reality, the odds of finding a low life mob with a life pool that happens to be on the exact cut-off of actually needing a hit less to kill because of that tiny difference are astronomical. This holds true up until about P1
Mephisto
who takes just as long to kill with the HoZ as he does with the Exile. There's literally 0 real difference.
Once you move to "real" bosses though such as
Baal
, the CB difference starts kicking in and even with your gear choices, HoZ takes more than 10% longer to kill him than the all-res Exile. Moving up from there just amplifies that difference (~16% vs. P1 DC/ubers, 30%+ on P8).

[Choosing to trust the maxroll math for the purpose of this particular post. Did the real, reliable math plenty of times before and the concept holds either way, even if maxroll numbers may or may not slightly deviate.]

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i do see your points but in general i consider CB rather as nice to have than as mandatory hence the
Shako
over the Guli (on a smiter). Aside from that i didn't throw random gear into that calc and i didn't choose the gear to make one thing look better than the other

that 30% more def results in 6% less ctgh from
Baal
on hell. That's what i meant with diminished value

Taking a step back and looking at the whole picture: Having CB on one side and Damage Calculation (in any way or form) on the other side are two very detrimental points that are being approached.

Going "pure
Smite
" makes sense only in some kind off meta way where you really use
Smite
as the main skill of dealing damage. And while mobbing it's +skills over cb because even with only
Smite
you kill fast enough that CB's worth is very heavily diminished. This was even true back before Grief was a thing. i did bring a Paladin through Hell with
Smite
only using Astreon's and CoH and never had Problems killing mobs or bosses. It's simply that the Skill itselfs isn't suited for a normal PvM build simply because off how it acts out rather than the damage output

If the approach now is to use
Zeal
most of the time while using
Smite
only for Bosses and / or big Mobs the choice of shield and it's damage is completely irrelevant because then CB is everything that counts and then you're playing a FanaZeal, or a Hammerdin or any Paladin that's using
Smite
to kill Bosses.

So you might aswell skip investing in
Smite
and use those points for something else.

I never understood the concept of building a "pure smiter" for killing bosses when the same outcome can be achieved with basically every other type of Pala as long as you have Gores + Guli


i could argue around this a whole lot longer but i hope you get from where i'm coming with this.


I also never said that Exile is a bad choice or no one should use it.

What i wanted to disagree with the most wha this statement:
"you just can't afford anything better yet"
that somewhat irked me. i could build an Exile but i'll never do it for any pala ever, because in my books it's simply not worth it. For what an Exile Costs it really should blow an Upped Herald out of the water (which it really doesn't) and not just profit from those hypothetical Steel-Rend (wich's own impact get's diminished as soon as there is a Guli)

Herald is simply such a good Shield all around

This is my Zealer. There aren't many like him and this one is mine.
My Zealer is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I must master my life.
Without me, my Zealer is useless. Without my Zealer, i am useless.
7
User avatar

Schnorki 3496Moderator

PC
Flippy wrote: 4 months ago
i do see your points but in general i consider CB rather as nice to have than as mandatory hence the
Shako
over the Guli (on a smiter). Aside from that i didn't throw random gear into that calc and i didn't choose the gear to make one thing look better than the other
[..]
Wasn't saying you actively tried to make it look better with your choice, sorry if it came across like that. I merely meant to say that if you don't specifically compare the very top end/optimized builds, there's a very real chance of your comparison in and by itself rendering your results too "biased"/too specific to be useful as a general statement, regardless of whether you mean to or not.

Fully agreed btw, a full, pure smiter is beyond painful to play through with. Not so much because they can't deal with stuff (quite the opposite) but for me mostly because it is just too damn annoying to run after stuff you knocked back with every damn swing. That's why for me, a smiter will always have a pt in
Zeal
no matter what and will never use
Smite
on anything that isn't a boss/that can be knocked back. And yeah, that does reduce the impact of CB a bit (as those mobs tend to be rather low life). It does however also amplify the impact of the extra ED off SR and the resulting extra Str. That's why (also in your linked builds), the Exile one has higher raw
Zeal
dps, despite lower skills.
(The extra +4 on
Zeal
from HoZ being a measly 24 ED as compared to up to 60 on SR, not yet counting the str - the AR factor you can largely ignore, thanks to Grief's ITD working on most things you'd
Zeal
instead of
Smite
)

___
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