With Season 3 upon us many people have been wondering if they should finally take a leap of faith and play the MA Sin. One of the critical fundamentals to understand is Next Hit Delay. Fortunately for us, Warren put together an amazing synopsis on Next Delay and synthesized this into a video review.
The big open question ahead of Season 3 has been, will Mosaic help improve the Quality of Life. In my opinion, the answer is YES. Running a Dual Mosaic MA Sin enables you for the first time to not only choose your desired charges, but enter into the A to S-Tier.
Note: At the end, I included gameplay footage showcasing a build framework as it plows through P8 Chaos.
With Season 3 upon us many people have been wondering if they should finally take a leap of faith and play the MA Sin. One of the critical fundamentals to understand is Next Hit Delay. Fortunately for us, Warren put together an amazing synopsis on Next Delay and synthesized this into a video review.
The big open question ahead of Season 3 has been, will Mosaic help improve the Quality of Life. In my opinion, the answer is YES. Running a Dual Mosaic MA Sin enables you for the first time to not only choose your desired charges, but enter into the A to S-Tier.
Note: At the end, I included gameplay footage showcasing a build framework as it plows through P8 Chaos.
Though the showcase at the end doesn't even come close to doing it justice (now that I've done actual post-patch testing).
I wonder - since I'm too lazy to look into technical reasoning/details for it atm - since you've clearly looked into the mechanics of it all quite a bit for this, does anything stand out to you that would block Cobra Strike from working?
Not sure if you've read my topic on the actual performance of it all but one thing I've found is that something about Fists of Fire and Tiger Strike (either does it, doesn't have to be both) ends up making Cobra Strike not work. I doubt it is related to hit delays and whatnot as it ends up breaking it for the entire game, regardless of what charges you keep/drop/rebuild afterwards and it ends up also breaking the rest of your leech but who knows..maybe something stands out to you as a possible trigger for messed up behavior between them.
Though the showcase at the end doesn't even come close to doing it justice (now that I've done actual post-patch testing).
I wonder - since I'm too lazy to look into technical reasoning/details for it atm - since you've clearly looked into the mechanics of it all quite a bit for this, does anything stand out to you that would block Cobra Strike from working?
Not sure if you've read my topic on the actual performance of it all but one thing I've found is that something about Fists of Fire and Tiger Strike (either does it, doesn't have to be both) ends up making Cobra Strike not work. I doubt it is related to hit delays and whatnot as it ends up breaking it for the entire game, regardless of what charges you keep/drop/rebuild afterwards and it ends up also breaking the rest of your leech but who knows..maybe something stands out to you as a possible trigger for messed up behavior between them.
Right, we modded the simulation prior to 2.6 being deployed today so we had more or less limited testing. But even with that testing, you can clearly see on P8 Chaos how she ran a 3 minute flat surgical execution. Talking to many about my video today across different Discords and on the forums, you have the collective consensus of either sticking with a singular skill function such as CoT & Nova so you have extreme control, or the Rainbow Density approach (of course) where you still dynamically stack. Bottom line: There are MANY (imho) strong MA builds you can go with right now. Choose your fantasy - lots of flexibility.
We also have to remember that now these skills are benefiting from % Elemental Damage finally (not only passively from Facets), but now the buffs on the Mosaic itself. You don't need an Infinity remotely to power this new A to S-Tier MA Sin.
Certainly not a cookie cutter one size fits all; you can truly have your customization with this new model thanks to Dual Mosaics.
Regarding Cobra Strike that is odd to me - more so as I called out, it does not deal with NHD/LC issues so that is initially fascinating. Can you send me what you are referring to on your analysis? Happy to read. Again, based on Warren's analysis/testing, and our testing, I did not see any bizarre behavior relating to Cobra Strike charges not landing. But you know how this game goes, there tends to be something nuanced/quirky involved if there is an issue to be discovered...
*Updated edit*: I actually think I know what is going on (what you are referencing). You cannot use Cobra Strike with FoF when FoF is too high of a level due to the physical damage being removed and converted to fire. As long as your FoF is 15 or below you still will convert, but if you wanted to leverage Mana Leach, you would want to ensure you do not have FoF charges. So if you are at level 34 FoF, 100% of your damage becomes Fire vs. Physical. Whereas, at level 25 FoF, you have 25% remaining that is physical and provides plenty of leech if Cobra is maxed.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
Certainly not a cookie cutter one size fits all; you can truly have your customization with this new model thanks to Dual Mosaics.
Regarding Cobra Strike that is odd to me - more so as I called out, it does not deal with NHD/LC issues so that is initially fascinating. Can you send me what you are referring to on your analysis? Happy to read. Again, based on Warren's analysis/testing, and our testing, I did not see any bizarre behavior relating to Cobra Strike charges not landing. But you know how this game goes, there tends to be something nuanced/quirky involved if there is an issue to be discovered...
*Updated edit*: I actually think I know what is going on (what you are referencing). You cannot use Cobra Strike with FoF when FoF is too high of a level due to the physical damage being removed and converted to fire. As long as your FoF is 15 or below you still will convert, but if you wanted to leverage Mana Leach, you would want to ensure you do not have FoF charges. So if you are at level 34 FoF, 100% of your damage becomes Fire vs. Physical. Whereas, at level 25 FoF, you have 25% remaining that is physical and provides plenty of leech if Cobra is maxed.
Agreed, there's plenty of options with this. Though the "everything"-lightshow is bloody entertaining to say the least. And unlike shenk's Death, it doesn't annihilate your performance.
I haven't done any technical analysis/research on it yet. Essentially, what happened is that I noticed my leech on Dragon Talon repeatedly disappearing in the "everything" build. I then set forth at least narrow it down via gameplay testing for now:
Any amount of Phoenix Strike: works fine
Any amount of Blades of Ice: works fine
Any amount of Claws of Thunder: works fine
Any amount of Cobra Strike: works fine
Any combination of multiple or all of the above: works fine
Adding in Tiger Strike and/or Fists of Fire to the above: leech breaks
The fire Conversion bit would make sense but that would only apply when it is high enough, only for Fists of Fire and not Tiger Strike without Fists of Fire and only while the charges are still up. But even if it is only Tiger Strike things break, despite that just boosting your physical aspect. And even if you let everything expire, it remains broken and your leech doesn't come back until you rejoin the game.
And just to make it even more strange, it doesn't happen 100% of the time but around 80-85 (guesstimated).
Never bothered looking into the true (technical) details of Charge-stacking before, seeing how the expiry made it a non-concern anyways. Now..seems there's some funky stuff going on.
Likely gonna do some more focused testing on this today, seeing how I kinda need to figure it out for a successful hybrid s3 build. ^^
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
Certainly not a cookie cutter one size fits all; you can truly have your customization with this new model thanks to Dual Mosaics.
Regarding Cobra Strike that is odd to me - more so as I called out, it does not deal with NHD/LC issues so that is initially fascinating. Can you send me what you are referring to on your analysis? Happy to read. Again, based on Warren's analysis/testing, and our testing, I did not see any bizarre behavior relating to Cobra Strike charges not landing. But you know how this game goes, there tends to be something nuanced/quirky involved if there is an issue to be discovered...
*Updated edit*: I actually think I know what is going on (what you are referencing). You cannot use Cobra Strike with FoF when FoF is too high of a level due to the physical damage being removed and converted to fire. As long as your FoF is 15 or below you still will convert, but if you wanted to leverage Mana Leach, you would want to ensure you do not have FoF charges. So if you are at level 34 FoF, 100% of your damage becomes Fire vs. Physical. Whereas, at level 25 FoF, you have 25% remaining that is physical and provides plenty of leech if Cobra is maxed.
Agreed, there's plenty of options with this. Though the "everything"-lightshow is bloody entertaining to say the least. And unlike shenk's Death, it doesn't annihilate your performance.
I haven't done any technical analysis/research on it yet. Essentially, what happened is that I noticed my leech on Dragon Talon repeatedly disappearing in the "everything" build. I then set forth at least narrow it down via gameplay testing for now:
Any amount of Phoenix Strike: works fine
Any amount of Blades of Ice: works fine
Any amount of Claws of Thunder: works fine
Any amount of Cobra Strike: works fine
Any combination of multiple or all of the above: works fine
Adding in Tiger Strike and/or Fists of Fire to the above: leech breaks
The fire Conversion bit would make sense but that would only apply when it is high enough, only for Fists of Fire and not Tiger Strike without Fists of Fire and only while the charges are still up. But even if it is only Tiger Strike things break, despite that just boosting your physical aspect. And even if you let everything expire, it remains broken and your leech doesn't come back until you rejoin the game.
And just to make it even more strange, it doesn't happen 100% of the time but around 80-85 (guesstimated).
Never bothered looking into the true (technical) details of Charge-stacking before, seeing how the expiry made it a non-concern anyways. Now..seems there's some funky stuff going on.
Likely gonna do some more focused testing on this today, seeing how I kinda need to figure it out for a successful hybrid s3 build. ^^
Meteor still emulates the Shenk Death situation for many so it seems. Was speaking with a handful yesterday who tested and it was really stressing their GPUs so that will be something to monitor if you choose to go that route.
Interesting on TS vs. CS. I haven't heard much/seen this elsewhere. Not insinuating you are wrong I just don't have enough data in front of me to have a substantive opinion. Let me ping Warren and see if he has any thoughts on this.
Meteor perhaps. Didn't bother with that as everything's dead before it comes down. Everything else in combination though was just fine for my rig (which still gets pushed by Shenk, sadly enough).
Edit: Had a quick look. PS Meteor is just fine for my rig. Even with everything else on top.
Schnorki wrote: 1 year agoMeteor perhaps. Didn't bother with that as everything's dead before it comes down. Everything else in combination though was just fine for my rig (which still gets pushed by Shenk, sadly enough).
Edit: Had a quick look. PS Meteor is just fine for my rig. Even with everything else on top.
My Rig is fairly tricked out especially with the 3090 EVGA FTW albeit I play on ultra settings end-to-end. Would need to personally test it, but imagine I would be locked in.
Worst case you avoid it, or drop (alter) some setting with optimized adjustments.
Let's just conservatively call this "slightly stacked"... ^^
Any level of PS trigger in there works perfectly fine with no lockup or slowdown whatsoever. Even on full speed max DT.
(On a rig that does definitely, sadly, still know when Shenk went down)
Let's just conservatively call this "slightly stacked"... ^^
image.png
Any level of PS trigger in there works perfectly fine with no lockup or slowdown whatsoever. Even on full speed max DT.
(On a rig that does definitely, sadly, still know when Shenk went down)
Now that is the real fun of the MA Sin when fadded blasting non-consumed chargers - being able to identity your charges in the event you forgot.
Oh well...at least you can wait the standard 15 seconds for them to expire without a finishing strike reset.
Rainbow city here we come.
But the real question @Schnorki is....what you playing at reset?
Luckily, I don't plan on pulling an all-nighter and will start tomorrow by first sorting all of the sunder-transition stuff from ladder onto my NL chars. So I've got some time left to figure that one out. Probably a last minute call.
Honestly though, I'm still torn between (in order of current perceived likelihood)
Bowzon (yup, even without Hustle..though it will make me cry everytime I log in - although I do have one on NL already..so that makes her a bit of a crap choice solely due to being redundant)
Another (different) fire sorc
MA sin
or a proper FoHdin.
Looking at how MA sins work atm, I can't help but believe it won't be a good call for S3 for someone like me who kinda hated the pre-Mosaic MA playstyle. I'd expect them to either get nerfed right back into that playstyle by basically breaking Mosaic (meaning I'll hate my ladder char ^^) or they end up being ignored entirely and stay as is at which point the degree of overkill they offer may end up simply getting boring sooner, rather than later.
Then again, the second part could be addressed by simply going with a 1-Charge cobra crushing sin, seeing how (thanks to always hitting these days) that's basically just a better smiter for any clone/ubers without being quite so overkill.
Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago
That is indeed an excellent question.
Luckily, I don't plan on pulling an all-nighter and will start tomorrow by first sorting all of the sunder-transition stuff from ladder onto my NL chars. So I've got some time left to figure that one out. Probably a last minute call.
Honestly though, I'm still torn between (in order of current perceived likelihood)
Bowzon (yup, even without Hustle..though it will make me cry everytime I log in - although I do have one on NL already..so that makes her a bit of a crap choice solely due to being redundant)
Another (different) fire sorc
MA sin
or a proper FoHdin.
Looking at how MA sins work atm, I can't help but believe it won't be a good call for S3 for someone like me who kinda hated the pre-Mosaic MA playstyle. I'd expect them to either get nerfed right back into that playstyle by basically breaking Mosaic (meaning I'll hate my ladder char ^^) or they end up being ignored entirely and stay as is at which point the degree of overkill they offer may end up simply getting boring sooner, rather than later.
Then again, the second part could be addressed by simply going with a 1-Charge cobra crushing sin, seeing how (thanks to always hitting these days) that's basically just a better smiter for any clone/ubers without being quite so overkill.
How about yourself?
Gimme some inspiration!
Well...
Team wants me to play the Support Din, but I am very much wanting to get back to the Bowzon now with Strafe properly fixed. Just want do something different. Intend to dabble with an MA Sin at some point prior to Season 4 Nerf (LOL).
Time will tell what the group decides...but either way I have no issues with the Din. Season 1 my FoH din died at lvl 75 Pit Archers off screen (Spectral & Extra Fast) so powered a new ES Orber. Season 2 was the oh so boring Hammerdin.
Worst case if I roll Din, I may morph into a Hybrid Zealer of sorts.
Schnorki wrote: 1 year ago
Kind of the beauty of dins, there's a fair few solid options to roll into if you change your mind.
Though...ewww, hammer!
Well that was quick...
Team gave me the greenlight on the Sin. Will start Trapper and eventually shift to MA.
Since I play HC exclusively and with the busy life of the 3 kids/work, I tend to only do one character per reset. The Hammerdin was just the pathway I went however boring it was.
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
But the real question @Schnorki is....what you playing at reset?
Ok so...after a night of sleep...and a few more hours of sorting everything on NL (dear lord....), I just couldn't decide. So ultimately, the gods have now spoken...
Th3ory wrote: 1 year ago
But the real question @Schnorki is....what you playing at reset?
Ok so...after a night of sleep...and a few more hours of sorting everything on NL (dear lord....), I just couldn't decide. So ultimately, the gods have now spoken...
image.png
Sometimes it is best to leave things up to chance. The RnG gods have spoken.
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