Cryptic axe Vs Thresher

So I wanna make a Pride runeword for my

Zeal paladin for a little extra damage. I have a

Eth

Thresher and a

Eth

Cryptic Axe. I’m a bit stumped between the two. My merc wears Andy’s and Treachery. Any input and why would help.

Go

Thresher. 10 frame attack versus 12 on CA (11 if you have IAS jewel on

Helm, but that's still slower).

Even with fanatcism? Would extra attack speed make them even out? It’s a weird question. Even though the ca has slightly better min damage, the

Thresher is still better?

If you're running at least lvl 11 fanat, then they're equal at 9 frames. In that case, CA is better as it has more damage and range.

Edit: Actually, the range might not matter. I think it's fixed on mercs. It's been a while, so I forget.

Hmmm, as a Zealer. I have lvl30 fanat on all the time. Thanks for info.

Thresher, easier sell, and probably you will swap Treachery for something better since i believe merc will be dying, so extra

Thresher ias will be used. Damage on base is not that important since Pride has no ed.

When I was plugging in the numbers into an IAS calculator I accidentally had Standard selected instead of

Jab, and this limited

Thresher and CA to 9 frames at best.

With your merc's setup, CA would need an IAS jewel in Andy's in addition to a high level fanat to reach an 8 frame attack. Apologies for my silly error.

Sanjozko wrote: 2 years ago

Thresher, easier sell, and probably you will swap Treachery for something better since i believe merc will be dying, so extra

Thresher ias will be used. Damage on base is not that important since Pride has no ed.

Yup Treachery can't hold a candle to

Eth Fortitude.

Eth Fortitude has vastly better defenses and much better damage, so merc takes way less damage and also leeches way more life. After switching to Fortitude, I can't understand how anyone can think Treachery is even close to as good as Fortitude; they're not even in the same ballpark.

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Yup Treachery can't hold a candle to

Eth Fortitude.

Eth Fortitude has vastly better defenses and much better damage, so merc takes way less damage and also leeches way more life. After switching to Fortitude, I can't understand how anyone can think Treachery is even close to as good as Fortitude; they're not even in the same ballpark.

You might be wrong, though. Someone already crunched the numbers and the results may surprise you. Google "Treachery vs Fortitude d2jsp" if you care to find out.

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Yup Treachery can't hold a candle to

Eth Fortitude.

Eth Fortitude has vastly better defenses and much better damage, so merc takes way less damage and also leeches way more life. After switching to Fortitude, I can't understand how anyone can think Treachery is even close to as good as Fortitude; they're not even in the same ballpark.

You might be wrong, though. Someone already crunched the numbers and the results may surprise you. Google "Treachery vs Fortitude d2jsp" if you care to find out.

I think, this is pretty situational.
For me there are plenty situations, typically fast runs to tougher enemies, where Kasim dies before Treacherys

Fade even procs - I hate that too much. So Forty all the way.

Gunar wrote: 2 years ago

I think, this is pretty situational.
For me there are plenty situations, typically fast runs to tougher enemies, where Kasim dies before Treacherys

Fade even procs - I hate that too much. So Forty all the way.

Agreed, I'm using Fortitude myself, but to be honest Treachery was doing just fine for my CS / whatever else mf runs.

Treachery is great until you get real gg armor. Especially with ed-less Pride on merc you cant rely on

Fade proc.

Eth

Giant Thresher

@Entercheat

With Fortitude (and 35% IAS from socketed

Andariel's Visage): CA, compared to threshers, has lower single attack dmg but will deal higher

Jab dmg. At higher levels where your merc is using his

Jab in about 80-85% of cases the DPS is better from CA. But since you are using him for auras anyway and are the main damage dealer you should therefore go for the faster weapon (2 frames for attack, 1 frame for

Jab) in

Thresher.

With Treachery:

Thresher absolutely demolishes

Cryptic Axe in both speed and damage.

So both points to

Thresher in case of Pride.

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Yup Treachery can't hold a candle to

Eth Fortitude.

Eth Fortitude has vastly better defenses and much better damage, so merc takes way less damage and also leeches way more life. After switching to Fortitude, I can't understand how anyone can think Treachery is even close to as good as Fortitude; they're not even in the same ballpark.

You might be wrong, though. Someone already crunched the numbers and the results may surprise you. Google "Treachery vs Fortitude d2jsp" if you care to find out.

Well unless Maxroll.gg's damage calculators are wrong, the +300% enhanced DAMAGE from Fortitude absolutely crushes Treachery's 45% IAS.

Lvl 94 Desert Merc using Andy's visage (

Ral), 277% ED

Eth

Thresher Infinity, Fortitude:

Attack
Damage: 632–2928
Attack Rate: 12 frames (2.08 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 3337

Jab – Level 26
Damage: 671–3187
Attack Rate: 12 frames per 2 hits (4.17 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 7634

vs.

Lvl 94 Desert Merc using Andy's visage (

Ral), 277% ED

Eth

Thresher Infinity, Treachery:

Attack
Damage: 438–1631
Attack Rate: 10 frames (2.5 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 2329

Jab – Level 26
Damage: 477–1891
Attack Rate: 10 frames per 2 hits (5 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 5622


So the mercenary using Fortitude does 43% more Attack damage and 36% more

Jab damage than the exact same merc using Treachery. Since leech is proportional to physical attack damage, and because Fortitude has vastly better defensive stats too, a mercenary using Fortitude is much, much, much tankier than one using Treachery.

Also, in my experience, my Treachery-using mercenary died a lot due to Treachery not proccing

Fade and not doing enough damage to out-leech the damage he took even when

Fade had procced. My Fortitude-using mercenary almost never dies.

Don't get me wrong, Treachery is good for the price, but it's garbage-tier compared to Fortitude. But people need to stop pretending like Treachery is still good once you can afford Fortitude. I wasted a lot of gold and time baby-sitting and resurrecting my Treachery-equipped mercenary "because the internet said Treachery is good enough" before I finally tried Fortitude and learned how amazing Fortitude is. Though I guess it can depend on what kind of runs you're doing, no need to go with an expensive mercenary armor like Fortitude if you're only doing easy areas.

To all interested, i found ultimate armor to Pride merc.

Eth Chains of Honor paired with

Vampire Gaze. Have better results than with Fortitude.

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

ALLEyezOnMe wrote: 2 years ago

tatarjj wrote: 2 years ago

Yup Treachery can't hold a candle to

Eth Fortitude.

Eth Fortitude has vastly better defenses and much better damage, so merc takes way less damage and also leeches way more life. After switching to Fortitude, I can't understand how anyone can think Treachery is even close to as good as Fortitude; they're not even in the same ballpark.

You might be wrong, though. Someone already crunched the numbers and the results may surprise you. Google "Treachery vs Fortitude d2jsp" if you care to find out.

Well unless Maxroll.gg's damage calculators are wrong, the +300% enhanced DAMAGE from Fortitude absolutely crushes Treachery's 45% IAS.

Lvl 94 Desert Merc using Andy's visage (

Ral), 277% ED

Eth

Thresher Infinity, Fortitude:

Attack
Damage: 632–2928
Attack Rate: 12 frames (2.08 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 3337

Jab – Level 26
Damage: 671–3187
Attack Rate: 12 frames per 2 hits (4.17 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 7634

vs.

Lvl 94 Desert Merc using Andy's visage (

Ral), 277% ED

Eth

Thresher Infinity, Treachery:

Attack
Damage: 438–1631
Attack Rate: 10 frames (2.5 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 2329

Jab – Level 26
Damage: 477–1891
Attack Rate: 10 frames per 2 hits (5 hits per second)
Damage per Second: 5622


So the mercenary using Fortitude does 43% more Attack damage and 36% more

Jab damage than the exact same merc using Treachery. Since leech is proportional to physical attack damage, and because Fortitude has vastly better defensive stats too, a mercenary using Fortitude is much, much, much tankier than one using Treachery.

Also, in my experience, my Treachery-using mercenary died a lot due to Treachery not proccing

Fade and not doing enough damage to out-leech the damage he took even when

Fade had procced. My Fortitude-using mercenary almost never dies.

Don't get me wrong, Treachery is good for the price, but it's garbage-tier compared to Fortitude. But people need to stop pretending like Treachery is still good once you can afford Fortitude. I wasted a lot of gold and time baby-sitting and resurrecting my Treachery-equipped mercenary "because the internet said Treachery is good enough" before I finally tried Fortitude and learned how amazing Fortitude is. Though I guess it can depend on what kind of runs you're doing, no need to go with an expensive mercenary armor like Fortitude if you're only doing easy areas.

Do keep in mind that the original discussion here is about Pride, not Infinity. That actually shifts things quite a bit in favor of Treachery because the IAS factor basically remains as the same relative increase in dmg whereas the ED factor from Fortitude becomes significantly less valuable because the base weapon damage it is applied to is crap (thanks to Pride having no ED on it to buff said base damage) and because the Pride's

Concentration increases the overall off-weapon ED you already have, meaning fort's extra ED is a smaller share/relative increase.

Given, I for one would still always take fort over Treachery if that were the options to choose between. But for Pride, the difference isn't anywhere near as big as it is for Infinity.

That having been said, my Zon's Pride merc is actually one of only 2 mercs that doesn't use Fortitude. I found him to be much sturdier with an

Eth gladiator's bane. For the very few times where he ever even gets hit, the additional hit rec and flat dmg reduction seem to be doing much more than Fortitude to keep him alive. Also because he then typically just gets hit at range but very rarely has a chance to hit back before his intended target falls over dead. That'd probably be a fairly different story on a character that doesn't melt everything from a distance, where your merc actually gets hit more often and has a chance to fight back (i.e. leech).
(The only other merc without fort is my summon druid's Duress merc but that's solely because he's the only source for crushing and OW in that build)