About ppl posting perf gears for sale…

Soultego wrote: 8 months ago

Bottom Line: Everyone has different opinions on what is Perfect.

Just wanted to drop a line here since this does pop up quite often - not dismissing the fact that its annoying btw, far from it - I hate clicking through like 5 listings with the perfect tag and only 2 of them are actually worth having looked at.

I purposefully made the filter ambiguous for this ^ reason quoted above. People do argue a lot about the filter - sometimes quite rightly point out that it's clickbait and far from perfect, other times the perfection of the item itself is in question.

It's sort of a grey area, a fine line between correct usage and annoying usage. The filter definitely helps highlighting higher-than-average quality items, which I hope is enough for people to endure those cheeky listings where it isn't used correctly.

If we make the Perfect filter stand for ONLY max roll items, and set out guidelines etc. then I can guarantee you that most people will not read them and continue to take advantage of the filter, or just not know/care that they aren't using it as prescribed.

Those who do read the warning, providing I make it visible enough (current tooltip isn't enough as is), would be more pissed because now the filter has rules and those rules are being broken.

If anyone here has any solutions for this happy to add to backlog - maybe Average/High roll/Perfect filters to give people more options to highlight their item's worth without going overboard?

Teebling wrote: 8 months ago

If anyone here has any solutions for this happy to add to backlog - maybe Average/High roll/Perfect filters to give people more options to highlight their item's worth without going overboard?

Hi Teeb

This is actually would be a good idea , however if this is going to take too much of ur time and/or present more bugs, then best to leave as-is?

I think having “perf” and “high roll” tag would be sufficient, as average rolls, normally ppl wont care much to tag that since its “not worthy” enough of their time and effort?

Assuming people would use “perf” and “high roll” tag accordingly and attach perf tag only on 100% perf gears?

Teebling wrote: 8 months ago

Just wanted to drop a line here since this does pop up quite often - not dismissing the fact that its annoying btw, far from it - I hate clicking through like 5 listings with the perfect tag and only 2 of them are actually worth having looked at.

If anyone here has any solutions for this happy to add to backlog - maybe Average/High roll/Perfect filters to give people more options to highlight their item's worth without going overboard?

I don't think there is any real way to fix the perfect-tag issue. Not without a complete overhaul of the trading system, and I'm pretty sure no one here wants that. I sure don't.

Even with me chiming up way too much in this thread, I'm fully aware that my own definition of 'perfect' changes from item-to-item and scenario-to-scenario. So the perfect tag will probably remain imperfect. I believe its better than removing it altogether. Its the blatant click-bait posts that irritate me.

I really like the idea of a low/mid/high roll tag. Maybe a small red downward arrow for a low roll, a blue horizonal line for mid, and green up arrow for high roll? Something unobtrusive, in the same spot the 'perfect' is now? I regularly look for low rolled items. Clicking through all of them looking for the cheapest can be a pain. I do this because sometimes the affix I want doesn't have a range. Like Trang gloves for example - the only rollable part is the defense and unless im looking for genuinly perfect (to up), IDGAF what the defense is. Give me the lowest rolled one for a few pgems, I just want my 20FCR!

Pretty sure I saw an item that was Anti-Perfect being listed as Perfect but described as Anti-Perfect for stats. Just to give an idea how far this abuse can go. So even if there was added labels, pretty sure they will still all get abused in some way cause again, everyone has different perspectives. as annoying as it may be at times. I honestly don't think any changes are needed, long as the item is quickly described as "Almost-Near-Close" at the beginning of the description which can be seen without having to click on it. I see no problems here. which in most cases I do find

If there was any added features. the ability to block/hide someone would be handy. this could help solve the above problem as anyone you see and feel is being too shady with their descriptions can be blocked and hidden from future viewing. But this would also solve a Bigger problem that I personally have with the trade site but truly not trying to complain here. just a personal preference. As there are some who have 50+ junk items listed for months up to years that nobody will ever care to buy and it spams away 2-3 pages to which leaves me not wanting to scroll thru the listed items

EDIT: Do apologies for those harsh words. It's not all true. Not all items junk and some items maybe someone will someday buy. The real point is once enough people been around long enough and built up a long list of tradable items. Everyone will have 2-3 pages worth being bumped at once pushing the rest of market beyond the point of where I'm willing to go. Generally I view 1st page, maybe 2nd page then I'm out. On to searching for the specific items at hand. But again am sorry, was a poor choice of words on my part.

In Fact, due to this reason I've actually just stopped scrolling thru items and now simply search for the specific items that I am looking for. kinda sucks tho cause sometimes it's nice to scroll thru and find items I didn't know that I wanted, which has happened on a couple occasions. But oh well, I'm more then satisfied with this trading site and choose it over all other options to show how pleased I am with how everything operates here. So ultimately no changes are really needed, but it was nice to have this discussion as this was one of my main concerns coming to this site. and first impression matter most, as they say.

EDIT: Thought of another less harsh way to solve that personal problem. perhaps a way to change listings from "Last Bumped" to Random or Last Chance (Reverse Last Bumped) would help. And apologies if all these features already exist. I have not even thought to look for them, to show just how little it's actually needed. so again, no changes needed would be my vote

Soultego wrote: 8 months ago

..<SNIP>

But this would also solve a Bigger problem that I personally have with the trade site but truly not trying to complain here. just a personal preference. As there are some who have 50+ junk items listed for months up to years that nobody will ever care to buy and it spams away 2-3 pages to which leaves me not wanting to scroll thru the listed items

.. <SNIP>

People actually scroll thru pages? Big Lol. This site has a huge advantage over the other trading sites because of the mouse-over pop up display &.. coupled with the tagging function actually saved plenty of time looking for things I need. The filters work just like any inventory ERP system, which i'm glad for.

On a related note. Adding another tag that creates another problem is simply creating a solution to a problem that creates another problem...isn't the solution.

That is why i've mentioned earlier to either shelved the "perfect" tag so the Perfectionist here in these parts don't start making threads like this from time to time questioning why people tag their sales as "perfect". *eye roll emote*

Else, just leave as is but I do suggest the wording of "close to perfect" as being too ambiguous & instead change to something else in the vein of "as long as any variable stat to be perfect" to meet said criteria.

Additional reading

TL;DR I think the best solution here is to use the Perfect tag on items you wouldn't mind seeing yourself when marked as such by others. That is very subjective but at least morally acceptable.

Case in point and my own subjective stance:
1) If the range of variable is low and the number of variables is 1, I'd expect the perfect item to be 100 %. (eg. 30ed

Magefist, or the discussed 30@

Mara's Kaleidoscope)

2) If the range of variable is high (50+ possibilities) and variables are 2, I don't mind seeing a perfect tag on it even at sub-100% (eg. 198-9/6 or 200/5 arreat's fate, or a 199-200/X

Titan's Revenge)

3) If the range in a runeword is at max or non-max%+sup%>max% I don't mind either being marked as perfect (I'm doing this myself)

4) If the item has several variables and only the ones that matter are perfect, go for perfect tag as well. (eg. simple 8/20

Vampire Gaze or 20/15

Vampire Gaze instead of 8/20/15 or even 8/8/20/15, 40/15 verdungo, or 40/15/13 verdungo; I wouldn't even expect to see a perfect tag only on 140/40/15/13 or even 100% perfect like some people here would try to suggest. Let's be reasonable.)

5) Where I'm not sure and am oscillating between them is upgrading uniques/sets. (eg. my own case of trading an upped 30ed

Magefist at 91 def without perfect tag but trading a 200ed upped

Jalal's Mane with 420def and a perfect tag, admittedly the def roll on the pelt is above average with 50+ outcomes.)

As @Necrarch before put it, any 20/20/X anni is perfect in my book as well and I'd encourage people to list them as such. I would disagree with anyone that would use a perfect tag on anni only at 20/20/10.

And from the other spectrum: I don't see a 44@ auric shield as perfect, nor a 14% sup base as perfect, a

String of Ears that's not 15/15 is not perfect in my eyes (I'd mark an x%ED/8/15/15 myself as such) but I wouldn't mind seeing a 7ll/15/15 marked.

The list could go on. The perfect tag, as quoted by @JulieP here, even says it should be used when "close to being perfect", and I agree with the premise.

We don't have that many active trading users to try and gatekeep a fricking label. What we should be aiming for instead is educating people to actually use all the relevant tags they possibly can, so it's easier to search for stuff (choosing the right rarity, item type, item effects/affixes instead of "Raven Knot" with a picture and no descriptions or tags). Not this.
BTW Best you can do here is just listing a trade named "Ring" with specified rarity and/or tagging your rare/craft with the Item Type label. That way you can search for it in two ways - Search trades -> "Ring" in the search window with "rare" Rarity and/or with Browse trades -> Item Type "Ring" with "rare" rarity, hopefully with more "Stats" labels included in both cases.

Yes, it can be infuriating sometimes to see something you don't agree with, but in the grand scheme of things? Make a mental note of the trader, if you need to, and move on.

Queegon wrote: 8 months ago

I think the best solution here is to use the Perfect tag on items you wouldn't mind seeing yourself when marked as such by others. That is very subjective but at least morally acceptable.

Case in point and my own subjective stance:
1) If the range of variable is low and the number of variables is 1, I'd expect the perfect item to be 100 %. (eg. 30ed

Magefist, or the discussed 30@

Mara's Kaleidoscope)

2) If the range of variable is high (50+ possibilities) and variables are 2, I don't mind seeing a perfect tag on it even at sub-100% (eg. 198-9/6 or 200/5 arreat's fate, or a 199-200/X

Titan's Revenge)

3) If the range in a runeword is at max or (or non-max%+sup%>max%) I don't mind either being marked as perfect (I'm doing this myself)

4) If the item has several variables and only the ones that matter are perfect, go for perfect tag as well. (eg. simple 8/20

Vampire Gaze or 20/15

Vampire Gaze instead of 8/20/15 or even 8/8/20/15, 40/15 verdungo, or 40/15/13 verdungo; I wouldn't even expect to see a perfect tag only on 140/40/15/13 or even 100% perfect like some people here would try to suggest. Let's be reasonable.)

5) Where I'm not sure and am oscillating between them is upgrading uniques/sets. (eg. my own case of trading an upped 30ed

Magefist at 91 def without perfect tag but trading a 200ed upped

Jalal's Mane with 420def and a perfect tag, admittedly the def roll on the pelt is above average with 50+ outcomes.)

As @Necrarch before put it, any 20/20/X anni is perfect in my book as well and I'd encourage people to list them as such. I would disagree with anyone that would use a perfect tag on anni only at 20/20/10.

And from the other spectrum: I don't see a 44@ auric shield as perfect, nor a 14% sup base as perfect, a

String of Ears that's not 15/15 is not perfect in my eyes (I'd mark an x%ED/8/15/15 myself as such) but I wouldn't mind seeing a 7ll/15/15 marked.

The list could go on. The perfect tag, as quoted by @JulieP here, even says it should be used when "close to being perfect", and I agree with the premise.
We don't have that many active trading users to try and gatekeep a fricking label. What we should be aiming for instead is educating people to actually use all the relevant tags they can possibly can, so it's easier to search for stuff (choosing the right rarity, item type, item effects/affixes instead of "Raven Knot" with a picture and nodescriptions or tags). Not this.
BTW Best you can do here is just listing a trade named "Ring" with specified rarity and/or tagging your rare/craft with the Item Type label. That way you can search for it in two ways - Search trades -> "Ring" in the search window with "rare" Rarity and/or with Browse trades -> Item Type "Ring" with "rare" rarity, hopefully with more "Stats" labels included in both cases.

Yes, it can be infurating sometimes to see something you don't agree with, but in the grand scheme of things? Make a mental note of the trader, if you need to, and move on.

+1 to what Queegon said.
And, considering the vast majority of "Perfect" tag user is either good, or at least OK-ish, I'd leave it as is.

As for the browsing, I strongly encourage anyway to use filters. Also "sort by listing time / descending" helps a lot, e.g. I regularly check all necros items - just need to review until last item I remember of.

Knappogue wrote: 8 months ago

the only rollable part is the defense and unless im looking for genuinly perfect (to up)...

Upgrading doesn't care about the previous roll. Is that some sort of gambler's fallacy? Any ol' sub-74 trang gloves have the same odds of rolling 97 as your perf 74-def.
If anything, I'd suggest not upping the 74 at all. Those have value as they are.

Similarly, any roll of 30ed

Magefist

Battle Gauntlets can become 98def

Crusader Gauntlets, and so on.

+1 to @Queegon , specifically the parts in green.

Instead of tagging I have an idea. Admittedly, this will likely be perceived as an over-engineered solution.

• Add data fields for item attributes on trade postings

• Add to sorting mechanism said item attributes

• #Profit

The way I see it, no one needs to upload rich media if all the item attributes are included in the listing. Additionally from a UX perspective, it would be great to sort by say, % enhanced damage when looking for my superior bases.

ghostpos wrote: 8 months ago

Instead of tagging I have an idea. Admittedly, this will likely be perceived as an over-engineered solution.

• Add data fields for item attributes on trade postings

• Add to sorting mechanism said item attributes

• #Profit

The way I see it, no one needs to upload rich media if all the item attributes are included in the listing. Additionally from a UX perspective, it would be great to sort by say, % enhanced damage when looking for my superior bases.

I think this would be similiar to what “shall not name that website” is currently doing?

That changes would be very difficult and alot of time involvement for this type of changes imo. Alot more testings would be required for sure…

Queegon wrote: 8 months ago

Upgrading doesn't care about the previous roll. Is that some sort of gambler's fallacy?

</sarcasm> but yes...*sign*...gambler's fallacy.

Skaijuice wrote: 8 months ago

People actually scroll thru pages? Big Lol.

Skaijuice wrote: 8 months ago

Lol at some of the posts above with issues on the definition of "Perfect".

I don't think trivializing people's contributions is productive to the overall discussion.

Haha what website is that d2rppa69?

Yeah I'm just Monday morning quarterbacking. It would be an insane lift to implement. I actually don't mind the current state of tagging... rarely does it bother me.

Skaijuice wrote: 8 months ago

That is why i've mentioned earlier to either shelved the "perfect" tag so the Perfectionist here in these parts don't start making threads like this from time to time questioning why people tag their sales as "perfect". *eye roll emote*

Skaijuice

Imo anyway, i dont mind ppl tagging “perf” to their items for sale, for me, to have that tag applied, item should be at least 90% to that of a 100% perf roll of the same item…

I think if every one keeps using the “perf” tag to tag their mid roll to “sort” of high roll, at this point, it would be just clickbait to view the items and hoping the potential buyer bid on the said item?

This is just my take on the “perf” tag.

On a side note, in all consideration, that perf tag should only apply to 100% item hence the term “perf”, but lets be real here, it would be hardly any posts with “perf” tag if we go in this route, hence i see 90% and above would be considered reasonable to apply the tag… just my take on this tag for the sake of discussion

Soultego wrote: 8 months ago

Pretty sure I saw an item that was Anti-Perfect being listed as Perfect but described as Anti-Perfect for stats. Just to give an idea how far this abuse can go.

Annoying things like this can be reported - use the button with the flag on it to report a listing if you think it's clearly wrong. Our moderators are active and look at every report we receive.

That's not an invitation to flood us with reports about filter usage guys lol, but in cases like the one you described here, then report it - a mod will see the report, read the details, and then take it to private messages with the reported user if there's good basis for doing so.

Soultego wrote: 8 months ago

If there was any added features. the ability to block/hide someone would be handy. this could help solve the above problem as anyone you see and feel is being too shady with their descriptions can be blocked and hidden from future viewing.

This feature already exists - just squelch them. This will filter out (hide) their listings from you when you are browsing or searching. You can squelch as many people as you want, until you're happy with the listings you're seeing.

Queegon wrote: 8 months ago

What we should be aiming for instead is educating people to actually use all the relevant tags they possibly can, so it's easier to search for stuff (choosing the right rarity, item type, item effects/affixes instead of "

Raven Knot" with a picture and no descriptions or tags).

Well said. This is the crux of the problem - the site doesn't educate people early enough, or visibly enough, for these good practises to be taken into consideration before listing items.

The effort to be made would be this: we need some kind of trading 101 topic, or a trading 'onboarding' topic, a beginner's guide, whatever you want to call it. We have a handful of guides/advice that live in the price-check subforum - these are really high caliber reading for a new trader here - but they are not visible at all.

If someone wants to combine all of those into one mega topic, nicely formatted etc., then I can make a small change UI so that people are very likely to see a link to it/being encouraged strongly and visibly to read it, before making their first trade.

It wouldn't be a Cure-all but it would certainly make a big dent in preventing tag misuse and other grievous annoyances for a fairly low effort in dev time/content writing + formatting.

Queegon wrote: 8 months ago

Yes, it can be infuriating sometimes to see something you don't agree with, but in the grand scheme of things? Make a mental note of the trader, if you need to, and move on.

And remember you can squelch them if you don't want to see their listings any longer.

ghostpos wrote: 8 months ago

Instead of tagging I have an idea. Admittedly, this will likely be perceived as an over-engineered solution.
Add data fields for item attributes on trade postings
Add to sorting mechanism said item attributes
#Profit
The way I see it, no one needs to upload rich media if all the item attributes are included in the listing. Additionally from a UX perspective, it would be great to sort by say, % enhanced damage when looking for my superior bases.

This is absolutely the best solution but also the most expensive in terms of what I'll have to do.

I've thought about doing this before, so that the searching/browsing/filtering experience is like Traderie. On Traderie you can filter by specific item attributes (life steal, enh dmg %), and additionally, you can specify a value for each attribute.

This allows you to return results for queries like show me all of the Annihilus listings where the experience attribute is exactly 10% and no less, or show me all of the Annihilus listings where the experience attribute is between 5% and 10%.

That really does solve a lot of problems - then people won't need to rely on ambiguous tags/filters, and instead, providing they are patient enough to actually input all of the values, and then people can interpret that as they wish (no need for anybody to try and interpret what 'perfect' means).

Let me break down the end result for you and the work required - this is a good exercise for me as well (writing it down):

Ramblings about how it could be coded

• Users would be able to input an unlimited number (or up to a sensible max) of 'keys' and 'values' for each of these keys, in every listing.
• The 'keys' represent all of the possible item attributes (life steal, enh dmg % etc.) in the game that could possibly spawn on any item.
• In order to show them a list of keys to choose from when 'building' the item in their create listing page, we'd need another database table, of every single item attribute that can spawn on an item, and the minimum and maximum possible values for each individual attribute.
• This would allow us to create an array object with every possible
  Key that can be selected by user in the create listing page, and each object in the array having a properties representing its minimum and maximum enterable values.
• Then in the trade listing UI write the markup, CSS, and jQuery UI for the buttons user uses to select a new
  Key from the array, enter its new value, reset, errors for superceded values etc etc to effectively allow people to 'build' an item.
• Then in the trade listing page frontend template, make it so that just before post is submitted, jQuery looks at each
  Key and value and constructs a JSON array representing the entire 'build' of the item (all of its attributes and corresponding attribute values).
• It would be a row for each
  Key/value pair in the array. Each
  Key/value pair would also need a unique identifier for later so that we can play with integers in mysql and not strings (more performant).
• Then update the posting functions to look for this JSON array when the posting function for a trade listing is run, and update another database table (let's call it trade_details) with one new row per item attribute, giving it the same topic_id as the listing, and a
  Key column (id of attribute) + a value column (value entered for that attribute).
• When the completed listing is viewed, we left join the trade_details table on topic_id=topic_id so that the 'built item's' data is available to be displayed in the view listing UI. Foreach() loop (for each row returned from the query) render each
  Key and value row as markup on the page, so that the item stats can be seen by people viewing the listing. CSS and markup etc. again.
• That ^ covers just creating a listing. I'd need to do additional code for editing an existing listing, but not that much more. I'd also need to handle the last bit of CRUD - delete, so that when the trade listing expires or is deleted, the corresponding rows in the trade_details table are also deleted.
• Browse trades, Search trades - UI and controller for both to allow for filtering by item attribute, and additionally, filtering by value of that attribute. Sorting by values UI and controller. This means new URL parameters and escaping/typecasting inputs to prevent sql injection through URL.
• Filtering by attribute would be giving the database the id of the desired attribute, then looking in the trade_details table for matches to that attribute. Sorting by attribute, on top of the filter selection, would be a simple ORDER_BY ASC/DESC addition to the query. This would work the same in browse and search trades.
• UI for this ^ would need to be both for selecting the filters/sorting, and the actual results page too.

I think the above would be enough for people to then fully express any kind of item in the game, even magic items. They'd be able to reconstruct the item as it is in-game, with the exact stats, and then others would be able to filter and sort by those stats/value of the stats themselves when browsing or searching.

If I were to do that ^ then I would also in the same sprint try and get the long-requested magic attributes database pages done. Since we've already collected all attributes and their min/max values, why not also add to that database table with more columns like description, can spawn on etc. and make it into a new database section. We did kind of start this a while back in the Feedback subforum (modellinghow a 'magic' section of the DB could be, in an excel spreadsheet).

This would in general make it a lot easier for people to make finely granular searches/filtering sessions, and would benefit people trading rare and magic items the most (items where stats can vary in both whether the attribute spawns at all, and the value within a minmax range of that attribute).

But, as you can see, that's a lot of work

ghostpos wrote: 8 months ago

Yeah I'm just Monday morning quarterbacking. It would be an insane lift to implement.

For sure it would be a long thing to dev. I thought I'd still write all that anyway ^ in case I do find myself with the time to sit down and do it!

I've posted an item that had 2 of 3 values near perfect (as in few points off of perfect) and 1 part of that being a min. I was warned to change that by a mod and I changed it (still think I don't agree with that particular case but I see it as sort of a 'rule' so it's fine).

The tag does say "perfect or near perfect" tho... But if I'm, personally, listing something that is not completely perfect I'll always put that as one of first thing I mention in the description and I think that's fair for everyone.

Now second and more important thing I would suggest is to ALWAYS open and read a complete description of every offer that attracts you. Trust me, it doesn't wastes that much time to check everything if it suits you the best... That being said, I don't think I ever experienced an offer without a picture of an actual item or without a note in the description of an item not being a 100%-er when it's being advertised with the "perfect" tag. And also on top of that was never 'scammed' into finishing a trade or tried to be scammed by someone actually offering an item with lower stats than one we agreed on in a trade (in-game or via this site) but I do always double check before confirming tho.

Rule of a thumb (at least for me): When posting something that has multiple roll-able stats put the perfect tag only if main one of them rolled absolutely perfectly and others are decent or if all of them are on the near-perfect level, no matter how [in]significant those stats are.

P.S. Not everyone is obsessed of having absolutely 100% perfect item(s). And many, many of us won't ever be in a position to afford one. But as long as majority of people are having fun (and can trade normally), it's all good.

Also about Anni, for example, just a random thought... Can't be X/X/10 Anni also be considered as perfect? Maybe someone who doesn't care about stats/res is out there exclusively searching for +10% exp Anni to help them grind and for them that is a perfect one. Subjectivity at it's best...

Would personally definitely love an option/addition of a tag or some sort of a drop down menu that can list every offer with a particular stat at the particular level, then "perfect" tag could be reserved to truly absolute perfect items, but that's just me. On the other hand, don't know how complicated that would be to code in...

TheDoo wrote: 8 months ago

Also about Anni, for example, just a random thought... Can't be X/X/10 Anni also be considered as perfect? Maybe someone who doesn't care about stats/res is out there exclusively searching for +10% exp Anni to help them grind and for them that is a perfect one. Subjectivity at it's best...

Personally i wouldnt tag this as perf. Thats like someone is looking for 20 stat only torch, i dont think seller should put perf tag on 20/10 torch as perf, that would skew up price history? Best would be to label in the trading topic “

Annihilus 13/10/10” without the perf tag?

But yeah, perf tag seems to be easily abused if use improperly…to each of their own i guess

TheDoo wrote: 8 months ago

Also about Anni, for example, just a random thought... Can't be X/X/10 Anni also be considered as perfect? Maybe someone who doesn't care about stats/res is out there exclusively searching for +10% exp Anni to help them grind and for them that is a perfect one. Subjectivity at it's best...

Would personally definitely love an option/addition of a tag or some sort of a drop down menu that can list every offer with a particular stat at the particular level, then "perfect" tag could be reserved to truly absolute perfect items, but that's just me. On the other hand, don't know how complicated that would be to code in...

On the ? re: Is a 10 XP perf.

It's perfect on the XP side. And as such i'll list it as the main selling point, with the other 2 explicitly stated too, just to be totally transparent.

And to reiterate - not everyone is after a perfect 20 stat or res. (and also may not have the budget) and only wish for the practicality of the XP boost.

AS a buyer i would search for the anni, then zoom in with the perfect tag..that's how i would find the 10XP & make my offer.

This saves me time otherwise i would have to look at every dam anni buried in 5 seasons worth of content.

It's all perspective.